Sleepwalkers

From Brilliant Trees through Died In The Wool...

Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby neonico on Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:05 am

Foales Arishes wrote:Listening to this collection reinforces my personal view that 'Manafon' is his zenith ...and I could not give a flying f**k what anyone else thinks about it... 'Five Lines' is good [very good even], and maybe the best thing on here, but it's somehow too neat and tidy, lacking the raw edges of his masterwork.... I find much of David's work just too tidy, verging on the bland.

Just my view, don't go stressing over it :)


i find your aspect of the tidy sound has something ......i think its to do with the clean cut studio hardware like the lexion effects that david uses...
i had these a few years ago and i have to admit everthing that was analog sounded digital after going through a lexicon .....i also made the mistake and had a digital mixer ....now i have a good old moody mixer that cracks and gives stress
the effects i changed to a good old cheap alesis now everything sounds great .... :mrgreen:
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby mejekel on Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:11 am

Simonp wrote:"The best music works when it resonates with truth"

Care to elaborate on this? Not quite sure what you mean by it


Now that's a question!!! Well I'd list all the great music I like and it all has an emotional resonance (oh christ this sounds like one of Sylvian's interviews!!!) that creates an emotional reaction in me. So for me music has to either appeal emotionally (how it makes you feel) or intellectully (either due to musicanship or composition of the piece) or very rarely both.

So as an example, Let the Happiness appeals to my emotional side whereas Big Wheels in Shanty Town appeals to my intellectual sde.

I'm happy you love Manafon but the lyrics are vague and lack emotion for me and the music although pleasant enough is not that interesting and does tend to repeat itself. I'm not saying its an awful record but the standards were set very high, very early on in Sylvian's solo career with BT and SOTB

Maybe its age but I'm looking forward to the re-release of Station to Station and the new Eno instrumental album far more than Sleepwalkers and I never thought I'd say that.

But hey, we are all different and whatever floats yer boat!!

Michael
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby baht habit on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:57 am

mejekel wrote:
Simonp wrote:"The best music works when it resonates with truth"

Care to elaborate on this? Not quite sure what you mean by it


Now that's a question!!! Well I'd list all the great music I like and it all has an emotional resonance (oh christ this sounds like one of Sylvian's interviews!!!) that creates an emotional reaction in me. So for me music has to either appeal emotionally (how it makes you feel) or intellectully (either due to musicanship or composition of the piece) or very rarely both.

I'm happy you love Manafon but the lyrics are vague and lack emotion for me and the music although pleasant enough is not that interesting and does tend to repeat itself. I'm not saying its an awful record but the standards were set very high, very early on in Sylvian's solo career with BT and SOTB


I'm glad that Simon had inquired as well, for I was wondering what all this was about dealing with 'resonance' of 'truth'. I suppose we are discussing the lyrics of Manafon...which definitely consist of just as much an amazing amount of metaphor as anything Sylvian previously wrote, yet easily comes across to me as more straightforward and honest than any of that mystical and spiritual babble that Sylvian wrote for his classic material...and definitely more true and intellectual than when he simply wrote lyrics based around the stolen poetic and artistic titles created by others.
This recent lyrical style that Sylvian took up after leaving Virgin seems much more direct, surely dealing more in realism and current world events now more than ever. As for Manafon, I am surprised that anyone would find it any more vague than previous work, but you previously had requested an explanation in your previous post so I'll be happy to try and oblige you.
"Small Metal Gods" cuts right to the heart of Sylvian's disillusionment with spiritual and religious aspects - Sylvian seems to be leaning towards rationalism and that is a welcomed sign in my opinion. "Random Acts Of Senseless Violence" is about the threat of terrorism - both international and domestic - and the preparation and carrying out of such brutality. The lyrics for "Snow White In Appalachia" and "Emily Dickinson" basically are focused on a female youth who uses cocaine to fit in with her peers and then gets off the stuff and shuns those peers. "Manafon" is based on a particular curmudgeon filled with contradictions - someone who Sylvian obviously feels an affinity for.
Elsewhere, it may be more difficult to decipher the lyrics of "The Rabbit Skinner", but that should be expected since it is filled with the off kilter free association that Sylvian used for his collaborations with Derek Bailey and now continues to use on new tracks such as Five Lines. And yet like the title track, the lyrics of "The Rabbit Skinner" mainly revolve about a loathsome being, perhaps one who chooses being a loner rather than being socially adept for it is much easier - Again, Sylvian feels an affinity for that sort.
"The Greatest Living Englishman" could metaphorically be a sarcastic satire on the perception that others have of Sylvian and his bleak musical directions. But certain lines seem to indicate that it could be literally about a writer who is losing his sanity. Perhaps Sylvian feels similar affinity for this character? :twisted:

As for the music, this is the first time that I have actually read another person accuse the music on Manafon of being repetitive. I personally hear that it is anything but that. But we all listen with a different set of ears, plus we all listen with our own set of preferences, so I suppose that all descriptions could be valid. But, is it really all that repetitive in your perception? Or is it more likely that the lack of structure and the random nature of the music comes across as repetitive in your mind?
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby mejekel on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:52 am

I'm not saying it's awful for goodness sake - I judge a record on how many times I've returned to it and I'm rarely in the mood for this record.

I was going to add that I think Sylvian is a bit self-indulgent at times and it's all about "him" but then realised I'd have to justify my opinion and thought better of it (Lol!!!!)

I'd kind of agree that "random acts of senseless violence" is probably the exception in terms of lyrics on manafon - I'd love to see a bit more of the social/political commentary that has cropped up on world citizen, atom and cell and less of the "painting alters black" that I hear on Manafon
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby neonico on Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:00 pm

baht habit wrote:
mejekel wrote:
Simonp wrote:"The best music works when it resonates with truth"

Care to elaborate on this? Not quite sure what you mean by it


Now that's a question!!! Well I'd list all the great music I like and it all has an emotional resonance (oh christ this sounds like one of Sylvian's interviews!!!) that creates an emotional reaction in me. So for me music has to either appeal emotionally (how it makes you feel) or intellectully (either due to musicanship or composition of the piece) or very rarely both.

I'm happy you love Manafon but the lyrics are vague and lack emotion for me and the music although pleasant enough is not that interesting and does tend to repeat itself. I'm not saying its an awful record but the standards were set very high, very early on in Sylvian's solo career with BT and SOTB


I'm glad that Simon had inquired as well, for I was wondering what all this was about dealing with 'resonance' of 'truth'. I suppose we are discussing the lyrics of Manafon...which definitely consist of just as much an amazing amount of metaphor as anything Sylvian previously wrote, yet easily comes across to me as more straightforward and honest than any of that mystical and spiritual babble that Sylvian wrote for his classic material...and definitely more true and intellectual than when he simply wrote lyrics based around the stolen poetic and artistic titles created by others.
This recent lyrical style that Sylvian took up after leaving Virgin seems much more direct, surely dealing more in realism and current world events now more than ever. As for Manafon, I am surprised that anyone would find it any more vague than previous work, but you previously had requested an explanation in your previous post so I'll be happy to try and oblige you.
"Small Metal Gods" cuts right to the heart of Sylvian's disillusionment with spiritual and religious aspects - Sylvian seems to be leaning towards rationalism and that is a welcomed sign in my opinion. "Random Acts Of Senseless Violence" is about the threat of terrorism - both international and domestic - and the preparation and carrying out of such brutality. The lyrics for "Snow White In Appalachia" and "Emily Dickinson" basically are focused on a female youth who uses cocaine to fit in with her peers and then gets off the stuff and shuns those peers. "Manafon" is based on a particular curmudgeon filled with contradictions - someone who Sylvian obviously feels an affinity for.
Elsewhere, it may be more difficult to decipher the lyrics of "The Rabbit Skinner", but that should be expected since it is filled with the off kilter free association that Sylvian used for his collaborations with Derek Bailey and now continues to use on new tracks such as Five Lines. And yet like the title track, the lyrics of "The Rabbit Skinner" mainly revolve about a loathsome being, perhaps one who chooses being a loner rather than being socially adept for it is much easier - Again, Sylvian feels an affinity for that sort.
"The Greatest Living Englishman" could metaphorically be a sarcastic satire on the perception that others have of Sylvian and his bleak musical directions. But certain lines seem to indicate that it could be literally about a writer who is losing his sanity. Perhaps Sylvian feels similar affinity for this character? :twisted:

As for the music, this is the first time that I have actually read another person accuse the music on Manafon of being repetitive. I personally hear that it is anything but that. But we all listen with a different set of ears, plus we all listen with our own set of preferences, so I suppose that all descriptions could be valid. But, is it really all that repetitive in your perception? Or is it more likely that the lack of structure and the random nature of the music comes across as repetitive in your mind?



Thx for the explanation of the lyrics of manafon ...... :smt006
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby Simonp on Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:42 pm

I dont think its an explanation of the lyrics Neo, more Baht's own interpretation of them
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby baht habit on Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:38 pm

Simonp wrote:I dont think its an explanation of the lyrics Neo, more Baht's own interpretation of them


Well, yes I must admit that I don't go into detail. But I think others are more qualified than I to dig in and offer up deeper interpretations. I can only give a superficial explanation since I have no interest in trying to link every single reference to fit particular people or events within the writer's personal life. I would rather analyze the lyrics in relationship to the context of the music. And so I tend to think that a majority of the info I wrote is actually shallow and obvious enough that anyone could agree with the gist of those explanations. I was only attempting to stress that the subject matter, metaphors and allusions are not all that oblique - certainly no more oblique than Sylvian's usual output...with all that prior nonsense about spirituality -- angels and devils, blue skinned gods, and that sort of thing.
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby untitled on Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:03 pm

BBC Radio 3 (Late Junction) played Five Lines last week (hurrah!) and have also been re-highlighting the interview with David carried out to promote the release of Manafon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tp52 (not sure if this link will work for long...)

He talks about his writing style for Manafon - he says the lyrics are mechanism to talk about aspects of his personality, in a manageable way e.g. Aspects of his personality, fleshed out in a character for whom these traits are maybe more dominant or an exploration of the road not taken. I think it's the same game he's always played with the listener. Spot the literary reference on Brilliant Trees, crack the symbolism on Secrets of the Beehive, answers on a postcard what the h*ll half the brutally honest Blemish actually refers to, guess which part is really me on Manafon. It's the same peanut/shell game every time, just re-invented. Personally, I love it. It is usually done very well (except for Dead Bees on a Cake, where I didn't care which shell the peanut was under - that's just my personal peanut preference, of course).

My only gripe is that in utilising the 'free-writing' style he has chosen to accompany the improv-music (and I completely understand why he's doing this) I think we are losing out on the best of his writing. As much as I love Manafon, there are many things that niggle me about the writing. I can't help but think they would have been picked up if there was more time for editing. They are small things admittedly, like the sudden introduction of the word “mine” into the otherwise third person Rabbit Skinner and the over reliance on the word “and” to link sections together. I love “Snow White” and “Emily” but they are both chock-a-block with “and”, half of which the listener doesn't really need in order to enjoy the lyric. “First thought, best thought”....yes, but I think he needs to give the listener a little more credit for being able to connect the dots without his help.

Anyway, that's my small and nit-picking moan off my chest! Many thanks to those of you who managed to stay with me through that :D Perhaps I can get back to enjoying the bigger picture now!
I found the way, by the sound of your voice.
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby mejekel on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:18 am

His lyrics have always been a bit hit and miss and I'd agree the hindu influenced material is an acquired taste.

I guess when the music is top-notch then you can live with the lyrics however vague/arty they are but when the music is so still/static the lyrics have got to hold your attention.

Strangely the stuff he's done with Arve Henriksen on Cartography does seem to work better IMHO as they seem a little more straightforward in the choice of language and probably more importantly it's not 50 minutes worth of similar material (2 tracks seperated by a lot of instrumental music). It probably has more to do wih variety of material more than anything else.
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby Haldeman Gracie on Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:15 am

The lyrics of Manafon are probably far more same-old in terms of his obsession over Ingrid Chavez than the literal interpretation given above, although he's tried to disguise it in novel ways, for him at least, which he confirmed in a Manafon-period interview. Much of it is discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1802
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby missouriman on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:53 am

Haldeman hit the nail. IT IS ALL ABOUT INGRID. It is all about her. Whatever you read and whatever the references it is about her. Hindu schmoodoo or rabbit skinning weirdoes... It is all about her.
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby baht habit on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:15 pm

missouriman wrote:IT IS ALL ABOUT INGRID. It is all about her. Whatever you read and whatever the references it is about her. Hindu schmoodoo or rabbit skinning weirdoes... It is all about her.


:-) Well, now I feel really silly -- i guess it should have plainly occured to me that Ingrid is obviously prepping to display her terroristic skills in Random Acts Of Senseless Violence...and she is definitely the cranky old man who inspired the text to the title track...and of course, she would have been that typical babysitting teen living a dull existence who turned to drugs for some excitement and social acceptance...not to mention that she would definitely be the muse behind the self obsessed and suicidal writer who would hope to be considered the greatest living Englishman...and without a doubt she has something to do with the eventual rationalization that spiritual religions and idolatry are dead end paths....so yeah
obviously it is all about her. :)
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby neonico on Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:12 pm

baht habit wrote:
missouriman wrote:IT IS ALL ABOUT INGRID. It is all about her. Whatever you read and whatever the references it is about her. Hindu schmoodoo or rabbit skinning weirdoes... It is all about her.


:-) Well, now I feel really silly -- i guess it should have plainly occured to me that Ingrid is obviously prepping to display her terroristic skills in Random Acts Of Senseless Violence...and she is definitely the cranky old man who inspired the text to the title track...and of course, she would have been that typical babysitting teen living a dull existence who turned to drugs for some excitement and social acceptance...not to mention that she would definitely be the muse behind the self obsessed and suicidal writer who would hope to be considered the greatest living Englishman...and without a doubt she has something to do with the eventual rationalization that spiritual religions and idolatry are dead end paths....so yeah
obviously it is all about her. :)


ingrid once said she had a strange path.... background associated with the icon prince well ,,,,,
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby Six One Cynic on Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:36 pm

With the release of Sleepwalkers, David Sylvian is now amongst my most inner core of admired musicians, it's just the best compilation ever, and it's cheap. 5USD for it.

As for David's current musical interests, well, I don't like anything he released before Blemish, except Ghosts; and I don't suppose I'll ever get used to that whole sound of Japan, so I'll just agree with whomever said David is more relevant now than ever, and is finally a premier artist in his fifties after being in the game for decades.
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Re: Sleepwalkers

Postby Simonp on Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:37 am

baht habit wrote:
missouriman wrote:IT IS ALL ABOUT INGRID. It is all about her. Whatever you read and whatever the references it is about her. Hindu schmoodoo or rabbit skinning weirdoes... It is all about her.


:-) Well, now I feel really silly -- i guess it should have plainly occured to me that Ingrid is obviously prepping to display her terroristic skills in Random Acts Of Senseless Violence...and she is definitely the cranky old man who inspired the text to the title track...and of course, she would have been that typical babysitting teen living a dull existence who turned to drugs for some excitement and social acceptance...not to mention that she would definitely be the muse behind the self obsessed and suicidal writer who would hope to be considered the greatest living Englishman...and without a doubt she has something to do with the eventual rationalization that spiritual religions and idolatry are dead end paths....so yeah
obviously it is all about her. :)


Baht..how could you have been so stupid! Did you not know Ingrid was a member of Al Qaeda :-D
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