Trauma Therapy may be necessary....

[humanracer]

I think you are all being too defensive. People have a right to an opinion and it's unfair for you to copy and paste comments from other forums and groups. I am personally not a fan of the recent DS material because I a mostly interested in synthpop and melodic electronic music. As with Sakamoto, I feel Sylvian has become too avant garde and his music lacks the accessibility of his earlier work. That is not to say the work is not of good quality, I just don't find it appealing. I also feel that Sylvian has become too much of a tragic figure, talking about the pain of his divorce and how he now leads a very reclusive lifestyle. Kudos to Sylvian though, he could have made lots of cash by reforming Japan and/or making another record like Trees or Beehive but he has chosen to follow his own path. I am just saying it is not surprising that some fans get upset if a once accessible artist starts to make rather inaccessible music.

[humanracer]

Then I can only suggest that you refrain from this thread, because that is exactly the reasoning behind it - and I surely hope it continues and in greater abundance once Manafon is released.
What we see is already a trend...Fans getting worked up and spouting off about how Sylvian is past his prime. And they seem so sure of their own opinions that they believe that everyone else should somehow agree with this. Rather than admit that they either just don't get it or that perhaps it isn't a release for someone with their narrow musical sensibilities, they automatically assume that Sylvian has lost his talent. It must never dawn on them that perhaps they are far behind the curve - still clutching to music he made decades ago, and reacting as if he should be expected to repeat the same music over and over again. So I think it is appropriate that we share it amongst ourselves. This warped sense of logic should be exposed. Besides, I tend to think it makes for very entertaining reading.
I would never be so bold to think that every musician I enjoy listening to is always going to please me. I didn't quite get Paul Simon writing and recording that musical Songs from the Capeman, but I was never freaked out enough to declare that he was fading in skills. I just went with the flow and realized that I am not going to get every move made by one of my favorite singer/songwriters. Same with Sting's decision to record and release Songs from the Labyrinth. I was befuddled at first. I didn't particularly like the recording, but I respected his ability to do so and his nerve to put such an odd challenge to his mainstream audience.
Anyhow, I do hope this thread continues on the path I intended. I see no problem with it, and perhaps those that do only do so because they could be counted amongst those I am describing.

This is highly laughable, you accuse fans who aren't here to defend themselves of being closed minded and not listening to other viewpoints YET you claim that people who don't like the new album must have a narrow musical taste or not understand Sylvian. I find this kind of blind fandom that does not allow criticism most disturbing. Thankfully this attitude is not widespread on all Sylvian/Japan forums and I urge people who are upset by this to find a more open minded community.



Rob Plunkett

[baht habit]

Rob, I am pleased that this topic compelled you to offer up your opinion with your first and second post.

This is highly laughable, you accuse fans who aren't here to defend themselves of being closed minded and not listening to other viewpoints YET you claim that people who don't like the new album must have a narrow musical taste or not understand Sylvian. I find this kind of blind fandom that does not allow criticism most disturbing. Thankfully this attitude is not widespread on all Sylvian/Japan forums and I urge people who are upset by this to find a more open minded community.
Rob Plunkett

Actually, Rob, you are incorrect that I made any 'claim that people who don't like the new album must have a narrow musical taste'. What I wrote is 'perhaps it isn't a release for someone with their narrow musical sensibilities'. So I didn't make a blanket statement pertaining to all the fans who are dissatisfied with Manafon. 'Perhaps' is used essentially to let everyone know that such a possibility may exist for some, yet definitely not for all.

And as far as 'blind fandom', I can not be accused of that for I have certain criticisms for Sylvian's past musical decisions - not all of his music appeals to me and I can accept that and simply bypass any song or even any album that does not appeal to me - and my basic point is that I would not go about ranting, writing and raving that he has lost his talent or that what he created was trash, just because I didn't happen to get the gist of the direction he was following.

Finally, I mostly feel that opinions are to be respected and anyone's criticism of Manafon is entirely valid. For example, here is one which I respect completely, even though I do not happen to agree:

>>>When thinking of music, David Sylvian is not the first name to come to mind. Sounding more like a poetry reading than actual melodies but it does push the boundary of uniqueness, even if it does do it to the extreme.
Each track is filled with ominous tones, rather than something that resembles a melody. While that style works for some, it’s not that great for entire albums. At one point I forgot what exactly I was listening to. Combine that with soft/mellow lyrics, and you're listening to one depressing album.
Manafon is definitely different but different doesn't always mean good. Sometimes sticking with the norm is the best choice. <<<

This reviewer happens to go by a lettering system and gave Manafon a D-. The reason I can respect this reviewer's opinion is because he doesn't get all melodramatic or nutsy, he doesn't seem to be dwelling on Sylvian's past music to the point where he wants to stereotype Sylvian into one distinct style and he didn't address Sylvian personally as irrational people tend to do....

So back to 'trauma therapy' we go:

>>>David Sylvian seems to be on a decade long quest to make increasingly unlistenable records. He's fallen into this formula where he gets these minimal electronic sidemen, who never had the burden of writing a song or producing a melody, and then they make 4 minutes of noise while Sylvian reads poetry over it. This record is the worst yet - absolutely no songs, no melodies, just monotonous nasal ramblings over the sound of a hair dryer while a bassist tunes up. I mean really, David, you've written brilliant songs over the years, these minimal guys you've been working with do you NO favors. In their own little world, I bet all the musicians who worked on this tedious, depressing album probably think they're really cutting edge artists who are above making shallow pop music. The only thing worse than shallow pop music is music that's so "smart" it's unlistenable. "Manafon" takes itself so seriously that it's actually laughable - like the musical inverse of Spinal Tap. Is this new Sylvian record "smart"? Well, most humans probably won't be able to listen to "Manafon" more than once. Maybe it's like that food that Rip Torn eats in Albert Brook's "Defending Your Life" - our tastebuds are not evolved enough to understand it. It's been a decade since "Dead Bees On A Cake", a decade since David Sylvian wrote a real song. I used to tell friends that he was under-appreciated, that he deserved to be heard by more people. But with this record I'm finally getting off the train. <<<

Or this one:

>>>If making noises around the studio is music then I think i missed something or...? If Sylvian suffer depression and wish to explore other horizon in musicm and if he is tired to write song in a standard way, and use trash instead of synth that's ok, but dont share that with us all and dont dare to put that on market for sale! I doubt that anyone would listen that as a first album instead of Brilliant trees. I cant give 5star for this. And not to mention the "....buffered Naoshima" cd too, the same awful noises that are the same that I hear outside my window and I do not sale that to no one! I hope.... but i cant after "blemish" (how can someone called a "song" stuff like "the good son"????) and this one, that one day Sylvian will return to the music as we all accept. I waited all summer for this album and I thought would be something like "Cendre" album with Sylvian voice ..... but no. I have cd with the experimental nonsense. Fennesz save Manafon please! Maybe there will be a manfon remixes like "the good son"cd. I think Fennesz/Sylvian should to an album full of melodic noises and that would be nice project.
David, no more noises from blemish, loud weather and manafon!!!!!! There is a still a fire in a forest, but the trees can be brilliant again, and you as a world citizen can gone on earth with answered prayers.<<<

If only there was someway this poor sufferer could be informed that Fennesz played an extremely prominent role in the creation of Manafon....

Anyway, I do hope that you stick around this forum Mr Plunkett. You state your opinions very well and I hope to read more of them in the future.

[John Trevethan]

Thankfully this attitude is not widespread on all Sylvian/Japan forums and I urge people who are upset by this to find a more open minded community.

I take offense to this statement, with only two posts I assume that you are new (although you may have been lurking for some time). In my opinion this is the most open minded Sylvian/Japan forum, please don't judge it solely on a few recent Manafon threads which are by their very nature loaded with controversy.

Take a look around here and you will find the place to be inhabited by mostly helpful and good-natured people.

Welcome aboard!

[jon abbey]

this thread is easily my favorite in this section, keep it going.

[Simonp]

i find it quite interesting that so many people have already dismissed Manafon on the basis it lacks melody. This is a far more melodic work than Blemish and in fact it's full to the brim with wonderful melodic music. Emily Dickinson almost reminds me of a darker "Brilliant Trees" with it's closing Evan Parker solo which by the way is my favourite track at the moment. All I can say is thank god Sylvian hasnt released something like the insipid Dead Bees on a Cake again. If it's a case of The Rabbit Skinner or Cafe Europa I know which I'd more than happily choose.

[javier]

The only thing worse than shallow pop music is music that's so "smart" it's unlistenable.

thank god Sylvian hasnt released something like the insipid Dead Bees on a Cake again. If it's a case of The Rabbit Skinner or Cafe Europa I know which I'd more than happily choose.

This discussion is indeed fascinating, and I find myself agreeing with both the above. Manafon has me enthralled and appalled at different times. Not the thing to listen to on the iPod on the morning train, that's for sure, and I understand the temptation to categorise it as up it's own a*se. But one cannot help but be stunned by the incredible intensity of it, even if one doesn't like it.

[Simonp]

[
This discussion is indeed fascinating, and I find myself agreeing with both the above. Manafon has me enthralled and appalled at different times. Not the thing to listen to on the iPod on the morning train, that's for sure, and I understand the temptation to categorise it as up it's own a*se. But one cannot help but be stunned by the incredible intensity of it, even if one doesn't like it.

Oh I think that would be the perfect time to listen to it. I'm off to Glasgow to see Massive Attack a week this Monday and I'm taking the train from Fort William. I'll be quite content on the 3 hour journey looking out at the beautiful landscape of Rannoch while listening to Manafon.

[javier]

Yeah, Fort William to Glasgow definitely could work Simon.
My morning train is Tokyo during rush hour!

[Phil Lawton]

I have a daily window within which to play 'Manafon' - it's between three-thirty and four thirty every weekday afternoon.

This is perfect, as I don't get home from work until after six.

[Haldeman Gracie]

Sylvian's work definitely suits a train journey. I've been giving him 2 train hours a day for the last few weeks and loving almost every minute of it ('Every Colour You Are' annoyingly pops up four times on official album releases).

I switched my Ipod versions of Brilliant Trees and Beehive from the Weatherbox recordings to the new remasters just last night and can definitely hear a difference (I thought compression may nullify any improvements, but I'm no expert).

I gave in waiting for Amazon.co.uk to post my Manafon boxset and just bought the CD in HMV today. I will give it one proper listen on CD/headphones tonight, then get to know it on the train via mp3 over the next week or so.

I did Fort William to Glasgow by car just a few weeks back. I'm sure between the stunning scenery and the train's natural tranquility, it'll be as good a forum for listening to Manafon as any. Better than listening to it down the Drovers in any case!

[jon abbey]

I gave in waiting for Amazon.co.uk to post my Manafon boxset and just bought the CD in HMV today. I will give it one proper listen on CD/headphones tonight, then get to know it on the train via mp3 over the next week or so.

I highly recommend ripping it as lossless AIFFs if you have the iPod space, the MP3s change the balance between David's voice and the music, emphasizing the fomer even more.

[Haldeman Gracie]

I highly recommend ripping it as lossless AIFFs if you have the iPod space, the MP3s change the balance between David's voice and the music, emphasizing the fomer even more.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know I had the option for lossless, and just about had the space (at 160Gb, I should have!). I tried it last night with Manafon and the remastered 'big three' to see what the difference is like. I have to admit I couldn't really discern any from the lossless to the usual (turns out it is AAC I'm using, as opposed to mp3). I played Small Metal Gods, Red Guitar and Let The Happiness In, jumping from AAC immediately to AIFF (5 times the size). And on an ipod / apple's own headphones, I couldn't hear any difference at all (and Apple's headphones are very good indeed). Even the Japanese background voices on SMG sound just as clear (ie not very) on AAC as on lossless.

Maybe you need a specific player and / or headphones to hear a difference?

(I think I'll need to give Manafon at least a full day in court before I crash in with a verdict)

[jon abbey]

by Apple's headphones, do you mean the buds you stick in your ears? because those are awful, and will likely lead to hearing damage at some point.

some records work fine as MP3s, a lot of hiphop even sounds better compressed that way. EAI/classical is always better listened to in lossless if possible, and especially a record like Manafon, where the relationship between the vocals and music changes when compressed to MP3.

[neonico]

by Apple's headphones, do you mean the buds you stick in your ears? because those are awful, and will likely lead to hearing damage at some point.

some records work fine as MP3s, a lot of hiphop even sounds better compressed that way. EAI/classical is always better listened to in lossless if possible, and especially a record like Manafon, where the relationship between the vocals and music changes when compressed to MP3.

I agree jon abbey....